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SN 56.40PTS SN 5.4451 min read

Looking For a Debate

Vādatthikasutta

No-one can refute you if you are well grounded in the four noble truths.

Translated by Bhikkhu Sujato · Pāli: Mahāsaṅgīti Tipiṭaka · Public domain (CC0) via SuttaCentral

  • 0.1Saṁyutta Nikāya 56.40Linked Discourses 56.40
  • 0.24. Sīsapāvanavagga4. In a Rosewood Forest

0.3VādatthikasuttaLooking For a Debate

1.1“Yo hi koci, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ‘idaṁ dukkhan’ti yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti …pe…“Mendicants, take any mendicant who truly understands: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.1.2‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti, puratthimāya cepi disāya āgaccheyya samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā vādatthiko vādagavesī:An ascetic or brahmin might come from the east, west, north, or south wanting to debate, seeking a debate, thinking:1.3‘vādamassa āropessāmī’ti, taṁ vata sahadhammena saṅkampessati vā sampakampessati vā sampacālessati vāti—netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.‘I’ll refute their doctrine!’ It’s simply impossible for them to legitimately make that mendicant shake or rock or tremble.1.4Pacchimāya cepi disāya …pe…1.5uttarāya cepi disāya …pe…1.6dakkhiṇāya cepi disāya āgaccheyya samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā vādatthiko vādagavesī:1.7‘vādamassa āropessāmī’ti, taṁ vata sahadhammena saṅkampessati vā sampakampessati vā sampacālessati vāti—netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.

2.1PTS 5.446Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, silāyūpo soḷasa kukkuko.Suppose there was a stone post, sixteen feet long.12.2Tassassu aṭṭha kukku heṭṭhā nemaṅgamā, aṭṭha kukku uparinemassa.Eight feet were buried underground, and eight above ground.2.3Puratthimāya cepi disāya āgaccheyya bhusā vātavuṭṭhi, neva saṅkampeyya na sampakampeyya na sampacāleyya; pacchimāya cepi disāya …pe… uttarāya cepi disāya …pe… dakkhiṇāya cepi disāya āgaccheyya bhusā vātavuṭṭhi, neva saṅkampeyya na sampakampeyya na sampacāleyya.Even if violent storms were to blow up out of the east, the west, the north, and the south, they couldn’t make it shake or rock or tremble.2.4Taṁ kissa hetu?Why is that?2.5Gambhīrattā, bhikkhave, nemassa sunikhātattā silāyūpassa.It’s because that stone post is firmly embedded, with deep foundations.

2.6Evameva kho, bhikkhave, yo hi koci bhikkhu ‘idaṁ dukkhan’ti yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti …pe… ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti;In the same way, take any mendicant who truly understands: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.2.7puratthimāya cepi disāya āgaccheyya samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā vādatthiko vādagavesī ‘vādamassa āropessāmī’ti, taṁ vata sahadhammena saṅkampessati vā sampakampessati vā sampacālessati vāti—netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.An ascetic or brahmin might come from the east, west, north, or south wanting to debate, seeking a debate, thinking: ‘I’ll refute their doctrine!’ It’s simply impossible for them to legitimately make that mendicant shake or rock or tremble.2.8Pacchimāya cepi disāya …pe…2.9uttarāya cepi disāya …pe…2.10dakkhiṇāya cepi disāya āgaccheyya samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā vādatthiko vādagavesī: ‘vādamassa āropessāmī’ti, taṁ vata sahadhammena saṅkampessati vā sampakampessati vā sampacālessati vāti—netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.2.11Taṁ kissa hetu?Why is that?2.12Sudiṭṭhattā, bhikkhave, catunnaṁ ariyasaccānaṁ.It’s because they have clearly seen the four noble truths.2.13Katamesaṁ catunnaṁ?What four?2.14Dukkhassa ariyasaccassa …pe… dukkhanirodhagāminiyā paṭipadāya ariyasaccassa.The noble truths of suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path.

3.1Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, ‘idaṁ dukkhan’ti yogo karaṇīyo …pe… ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yogo karaṇīyo”ti.That’s why you should practice meditation …”

3.2Dasamaṁ.

3.3Sīsapāvanavaggo catuttho.

4.0Tassuddānaṁ

4.1Sīsapā khadiro daṇḍo,4.2celā sattisatena ca;4.3Pāṇā sūriyūpamā dvedhā,4.4indakhīlo ca vādinoti.

Translator’s notes

  1. A kukku (or hattha) is a cubit, roughly 45 cm or 18 in. I round down to “feet”.

    ↩ sn56.40:2.1