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Snp 4.8PTS Snp 1611 min read

To Pasūra on Debate

Pasūrasutta

The drawbacks of engaging in debates, for winners and losers alike.

Translated by Bhikkhu Sujato · Pāli: Mahāsaṅgīti Tipiṭaka · Public domain (CC0) via SuttaCentral

  • 0.1Sutta Nipāta 4.8Anthology of Discourses 4.8

0.2PasūrasuttaWith Pasūra

1.1Idheva suddhī iti vādayanti,“Here alone is purity,” they say,1.2Nāññesu dhammesu visuddhimāhu;denying that there is purification in other teachings.1.3Yaṁ nissitā tattha subhaṁ vadānā,Speaking of the beauty <j>in that which they depend on,11.4Paccekasaccesu puthū niviṭṭhā.each one is dogmatic about <j>their own idiosyncratic interpretation.2

2.1Te vādakāmā parisaṁ vigayha,Desiring debate, they plunge into an assembly,2.2Bālaṁ dahantī mithu aññamaññaṁ;where each takes the other as a fool.32.3Vadanti te aññasitā kathojjaṁ,Relying on others they state their contention,2.4Pasaṁsakāmā kusalā vadānā.desiring praise while claiming to be skilled.

3.1Yutto kathāyaṁ parisāya majjhe,Addicted to debating in the midst of the assembly,3.2Pasaṁsamicchaṁ vinighāti hoti;their need for praise makes them nervous.3.3Apāhatasmiṁ pana maṅku hoti,But when they’re repudiated they get embarrassed;3.4Nindāya so kuppati randhamesī.upset at criticism, they find fault in others.

4.1Yamassa vādaṁ parihīnamāhu,If their doctrine is said to be weak,4.2Apāhataṁ pañhavimaṁsakāse;and judges declare it repudiated,4.3Paridevati socati hīnavādo,the loser weeps and wails,4.4Upaccagā manti anutthunāti.moaning, “They beat me.”

5.1Ete vivādā samaṇesu jātā,When these disputes come up among ascetics,5.2Etesu ugghātinighāti hoti;they get excited or dejected.5.3Etampi disvā virame kathojjaṁ,Seeing this, refrain from contention,5.4Na haññadatthatthi pasaṁsalābhā.for the only purpose is praise and profit.

6.1Pasaṁsito vā pana tattha hoti,But if, having declared their doctrine,6.2Akkhāya vādaṁ parisāya majjhe;they are praised there in the midst of the assembly,6.3So hassatī unnamatī ca tena,they laugh and gloat because of it,6.4Pappuyya tamatthaṁ yathā mano ahu.having got what they wanted.

7.1Yā unnatī sāssa vighātabhūmi,Their pride is their downfall,7.2Mānātimānaṁ vadate paneso;yet they speak from conceit and arrogance.7.3Etampi disvā na vivādayetha,Seeing this, one ought not dispute,7.4Na hi tena suddhiṁ kusalā vadanti.for those who are skilled say this is no way to purity.

8.1Sūro yathā rājakhādāya puṭṭho,As a warrior, after feasting on royal food,48.2Abhigajjameti paṭisūramicchaṁ;goes roaring, looking for someone to fight—8.3Yeneva so tena palehi sūra,go off and find an opponent, Sūra,8.4Pubbeva natthi yadidaṁ yudhāya.for here, as before, there is no one to combat.

9.1Ye diṭṭhimuggayha vivādayanti,When someone disputes about a view they’ve adopted,9.2Idameva saccanti ca vādayanti;saying, “This is the only truth,”9.3Te tvaṁ vadassū na hi tedha atthi,say to them, “Here you’ll have no adversary9.4Vādamhi jāte paṭisenikattā.when a dispute has come up.”

10.1Visenikatvā pana ye caranti,There are those who live far from the crowd,10.2Diṭṭhīhi diṭṭhiṁ avirujjhamānā;not countering views with view.10.3Tesu tvaṁ kiṁ labhetho pasūra,Who is there to argue with you, Pasūra,510.4Yesīdha natthī paramuggahītaṁ.among those who grasp nothing here as the highest?

11.1Atha tvaṁ pavitakkamāgamā,And so you come along speculating,11.2Manasā diṭṭhigatāni cintayanto;thinking up theories in your mind.11.3Dhonena yugaṁ samāgamā,Now that you’ve challenged <j>someone who is cleansed,611.4Na hi tvaṁ sakkhasi sampayātaveti.you’ll not be able to respond.7

11.5Pasūrasuttaṁ aṭṭhamaṁ.

Translator’s notes

  1. Norman has “good” for subha, Bodhi “excellent”, but the Niddesa shows that the sense is “illuminating, bringing wisdom”. The same phrase occurs at Snp 4.13:16.3. Perhaps these are ascetics who rely on the subhavimutti, the “beautiful release” (of jhānas). But compare the “ultimate splendor” (paramo vaṇṇo) propounded by the wanderer Sakuludāyī, which seems to have just an idea without any real basis (MN 79:9.3).

    ↩ snp4.8:1.3

  2. Here, as at Snp 4.12:15.3, puthu emphasizes how they all have their own distinct view.

    ↩ snp4.8:1.4

  3. Dahanti is to “regard” or “see”, per Niddesa and Commentary; Bodhi’s “accuse” seems hard to justify.

    ↩ snp4.8:2.2

  4. A similar idea is found at SN 56.40.

    ↩ snp4.8:8.1

  5. The Sanskrit here has the name Sīhaśūra.

    ↩ snp4.8:10.3

  6. Here, yuga is connected in the Niddesa with yugaggāha (“taking the reins”), which in turn is connected in Vb 17:75.2 with “causing disputes”. It seems to be an idiom for “issuing a challenge”.

    ↩ snp4.8:11.3

  7. Sakkhasi is 2nd future, sampayātave is infinitive. Sampāyati is a fairly common word, “answer a question”, usually in a negative sense, to be “stumped” by a question. Oddly, most translators (Bodhi, Norman, Ñāṇadīpa, Ṭhānissaro) don’t catch this sense.

    ↩ snp4.8:11.4